I doubt anyone seriously wants to hinder the air/mech gameplay, after all GC is about FUN and playing with a great community. The goal here is to produce the best possible environment for organized cooperative play. No doubt turning 3D spotting off brings many new challenges and hurdles to the table for air and armor players, but that will ultimately foster better communication and organization. I like to think of it as more of a challenge to overcome then killing the fun of being a pilot/driver. Heck, even in just 1 training session a group of us PRIDe players were able to figure out some very effective systems to coordinate air support on the ground; it's not impossible to be effective with 3D spotting off, it just takes a bit more effort and cooperation.
Take the opportunity to figure out new strategies and new ways to use the jets, helis and tanks. I think in the long-run, this should be a very positive change (should it go through).
Vote 3D spotting On or Off
Moderator: Executive
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TacticalVirus
- Supporting Member
- Posts: 580
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:59 pm
Re: Vote 3D spotting On or Off
3D spotting off has almost no effect on Armour. It's a non issue for the tank crews I've run. It is however an issue for the air.
As it stands, AA is imbalanced. With the drastically reduced damage and splash range of rocket pods, jets are close to being useless at anything other than taking out other jets and the occasional helo. The combination of those two factors makes 3D spotting crucial air combat in the GC setting.
Yes, you talk about it creating the need for better communication and teamwork. I agree, it does exactly that for ground forces. The problem is with the current state of airpower in BF3, the margin for error for the airforce is too small for them to be truly effective. Just look at Daskro's vids, especially the match footage from Kharg Island. We saved our tank from multiple double-jet passes. The only time we lost the tank to a double-jet pass was when they were flying wingtip-to-wingtip in perfect sync. 1/6 double-jet passes working to kill a single tank is frankly just not fair. Unless you think it's fair that in order for the airforce to be somewhat effective, they must have complete air dominance for the majority of a round with minimal ground based AA.
The problem I have with this is that a lot of the sentiment behind this rule change is governed by experience from Campaign 2. How many patches did we have during C2? How many since? Things have changed quite a bit since the bulk of C2 where airpower determined the outcome of maps. keeping 3D spotting on wont magically turn the Air into angels of death again. It will atleast make it somewhat more enjoyable for them though, and let them be more effective than a plastic fork in a gun fight.
For the record, I spent the bulk of the discussions being a proponent for 3D spotting off. Between seeing the ineffectiveness of airpower from the FC's seat and as a tanker, I realized that as it stands it's an unrealistic expectation to think your airforce will enjoy themselves while playing in GC with 3D spotting off. I enjoy 3D spotting off because it doesn't affect my effectiveness as a tanker, it actually improves it as I'm forced to use situational awareness at all times and not rely on doritos. The Air is left scrambling though, target acquisition is much harder for Air-v-Ground than it is Ground-v-Air. You'll never hear "where the hell is that jet?" or "where did that Helo go?". They stand out pretty well. You will hear "where the frak is that AA" though, especially on maps like Caspian. Then they have to line up both jets so their timing is just right, and if they're lucky all their missiles will hit and they'll take out the vehicle. Any misses or gap in the timing, and the vehicle will only be disabled and if the crew is competent, repaired to full by the next pass.
Then there's the whole "fun" aspect of GC. Even in C2, the airforce was under a lot of pressure that made it less about fun and more about performance. Expectations were high and if you didn't meet them, you were the scapegoat for a loss. That's not fun. Now atleast the airpower isn't THE deciding factor, so the pressure shouldn't be as high. However, with 3D spotting off, they're so ineffective it simply isn't enjoyable, atleast not enough to warrant the pressure that will be applied once the campaign actually starts.
[TL;DR]
3D spotting should be on. It might make it slightly more enjoyable as Infantry and Armoured, but the Air becomes about as enjoyable as using an angry porcupine for a mouse.
As it stands, AA is imbalanced. With the drastically reduced damage and splash range of rocket pods, jets are close to being useless at anything other than taking out other jets and the occasional helo. The combination of those two factors makes 3D spotting crucial air combat in the GC setting.
Yes, you talk about it creating the need for better communication and teamwork. I agree, it does exactly that for ground forces. The problem is with the current state of airpower in BF3, the margin for error for the airforce is too small for them to be truly effective. Just look at Daskro's vids, especially the match footage from Kharg Island. We saved our tank from multiple double-jet passes. The only time we lost the tank to a double-jet pass was when they were flying wingtip-to-wingtip in perfect sync. 1/6 double-jet passes working to kill a single tank is frankly just not fair. Unless you think it's fair that in order for the airforce to be somewhat effective, they must have complete air dominance for the majority of a round with minimal ground based AA.
The problem I have with this is that a lot of the sentiment behind this rule change is governed by experience from Campaign 2. How many patches did we have during C2? How many since? Things have changed quite a bit since the bulk of C2 where airpower determined the outcome of maps. keeping 3D spotting on wont magically turn the Air into angels of death again. It will atleast make it somewhat more enjoyable for them though, and let them be more effective than a plastic fork in a gun fight.
For the record, I spent the bulk of the discussions being a proponent for 3D spotting off. Between seeing the ineffectiveness of airpower from the FC's seat and as a tanker, I realized that as it stands it's an unrealistic expectation to think your airforce will enjoy themselves while playing in GC with 3D spotting off. I enjoy 3D spotting off because it doesn't affect my effectiveness as a tanker, it actually improves it as I'm forced to use situational awareness at all times and not rely on doritos. The Air is left scrambling though, target acquisition is much harder for Air-v-Ground than it is Ground-v-Air. You'll never hear "where the hell is that jet?" or "where did that Helo go?". They stand out pretty well. You will hear "where the frak is that AA" though, especially on maps like Caspian. Then they have to line up both jets so their timing is just right, and if they're lucky all their missiles will hit and they'll take out the vehicle. Any misses or gap in the timing, and the vehicle will only be disabled and if the crew is competent, repaired to full by the next pass.
Then there's the whole "fun" aspect of GC. Even in C2, the airforce was under a lot of pressure that made it less about fun and more about performance. Expectations were high and if you didn't meet them, you were the scapegoat for a loss. That's not fun. Now atleast the airpower isn't THE deciding factor, so the pressure shouldn't be as high. However, with 3D spotting off, they're so ineffective it simply isn't enjoyable, atleast not enough to warrant the pressure that will be applied once the campaign actually starts.
[TL;DR]
3D spotting should be on. It might make it slightly more enjoyable as Infantry and Armoured, but the Air becomes about as enjoyable as using an angry porcupine for a mouse.
Re: Vote 3D spotting On or Off
Let the side that is defending the territory decide the 3D spotting. Instant home-field advantage. Or, do the opposite, and let attacking team decide the 3D spotting. Instant Fog Of War.
Boom goes the dynamite! I win at life.
Also, I was hoping for some more butthurt rants in this thread, with at least one threat to quit and/or commit suicide if someone didn't get their way, so step it up guys.
Boom goes the dynamite! I win at life.
Also, I was hoping for some more butthurt rants in this thread, with at least one threat to quit and/or commit suicide if someone didn't get their way, so step it up guys.
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the_bone_ranger
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:53 pm
- Location: Gainesville, FL
Re: Vote 3D spotting On or Off
Why I like 3D spotting: It makes killing people easier.
Why I dislike 3D spotting: It makes it easier for people to kill me.
The air force has a significant advantage simply being in the air. Nerfs aside, if I'm out repairing a tank and a jet attacks the side I'm on (especially with the experienced pilots playing in GC) I'm dead. Even if they don't destroy the tank they've forced the gunner out to maintain repair until I respawn and given advantage to the infantry also assaulting it. Considering the only thing that can effectively counter an experienced jet pilot is another experienced jet pilot I'm not losing any sleep over them having to work a bit harder.
FTR though, I voted On.
Why I dislike 3D spotting: It makes it easier for people to kill me.
The air force has a significant advantage simply being in the air. Nerfs aside, if I'm out repairing a tank and a jet attacks the side I'm on (especially with the experienced pilots playing in GC) I'm dead. Even if they don't destroy the tank they've forced the gunner out to maintain repair until I respawn and given advantage to the infantry also assaulting it. Considering the only thing that can effectively counter an experienced jet pilot is another experienced jet pilot I'm not losing any sleep over them having to work a bit harder.
FTR though, I voted On.
"You can run on for a long time, run on for a long time..."
Re: Vote 3D spotting On or Off
^This & This:TacticalVirus wrote:3D spotting off has almost no effect on Armour. It's a non issue for the tank crews I've run. It is however an issue for the air.
As it stands, AA is imbalanced. With the drastically reduced damage and splash range of rocket pods, jets are close to being useless at anything other than taking out other jets and the occasional helo. The combination of those two factors makes 3D spotting crucial air combat in the GC setting.
Then there's the whole "fun" aspect of GC. Even in C2, the airforce was under a lot of pressure that made it less about fun and more about performance. Expectations were high and if you didn't meet them, you were the scapegoat for a loss. That's not fun. Now atleast the airpower isn't THE deciding factor, so the pressure shouldn't be as high. However, with 3D spotting off, they're so ineffective it simply isn't enjoyable, atleast not enough to warrant the pressure that will be applied once the campaign actually starts.
3D spotting should be on. It might make it slightly more enjoyable as Infantry and Armoured, but the Air becomes about as enjoyable as using an angry porcupine for a mouse.
I'm still thinking a 3rd option should be present. I still think the best compromise would be to have it enabled so everyones happy, but to disable it for infantry based maps or when we do conquest large with 64 people with no vehicles. No spotting benefits infantry, so let them have their fun when vehicles are an afterthought.TCZapper wrote:. I think it improves infantry play, not significantly, but I don't think it would hurt to enable it only on air maps.
Air is really hurt by a lack of 3d spotting, and as of now they are really fecking weak regardless. The air domination was mostly when the patch was unbalanced. DICE has nerfed rocket pods massively and buffed the AA so I really don't see helping out the air as bad thing. As far as I can tell, jets can only kill me if I'm already in a fight, or they both do a pass on me. A single jet cannot beat a tank like it could in the older patch.
As for tanks, I rely massively on minimap awareness so it doesn't bother me.
Anyway, I'm voting on because I think it hurts air too much. It feels like you're ruining the game for those players that are in the air because the ground wants marginally better gameplay.
This isn't hard to do. They adjusted the spotting on the fly last weekend. This also keeps everyone happy. I like no spotting as infantry. Being in the air is not fun though, especially with the invisible and overpowered AA.
This is battlefield. Vehicles should be able to do what they do best. Not be gimped the whole time. What's next? Hardcore mode for jets where they can't do 3rd person view? The process of shaping and changing bf3 to make it cater to players is unfair. We aren't being selfish by wanting to play to our potential and what we trained for. That goes for the jets too. Hours and hours of flight time and practice make them fierce in the air. Not just spamming Q.
Only Tactical seemed to understand the pressure the air force was under last campaign. Going up against a top 5th in the world jet pilot is not fun and I wouldn't want anyone to suffer that. We slugged it out, we practiced 4 days a week, and changed our tactics.
Even mrBlue admitted in the previous thread that HitCorp didn't do as much as they could have in stopping KI and its air tactics in the later half of the campaign.
Even with spotting on, there is still plenty of communication going on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmLn4Dfd ... e=youtu.be
3D spotting enhances our ability to assist the ground and for the ground to assist us. It's a 2 way street.
People with slower machines (like myself) will struggle because of the draw distance differences. If you have the game mesh settings on high or medium, you can see much further than someone on low. That includes spotting doritos.
When the game first was released, IRNV scopes DOMINATED. I think that was more of a problem than 3D spotting ever was.
Join any hardcore server (if you can find any) and jets are clueless and the mobile AA is in first place. Check the chat box for all the people whining about snipers.
If getting killed by the cannon on the jet upsets people so much, why don't we just make a rule that it can't be used on infantry?
I thought this community was created for organized not restrictive pub play? Dice has already created a rock paper scissors design. The problem with unorganized pub play is that it has no fair play rules (spawn killing, ramming, stealing) and that people don't work together more often than not. The structure is there though.
This is where the beauty of GC comes in. That's why I joined.
The more restrictive it becomes, the more it will drive people away and become similar to CAL, TWL where only a selective group plays. (ask undisparo how much fun that is...)
With this change, you would be strangling the airforce. We already have numerous things going on. (no health regen, broken countermeasures, ace pilots, an overpowered and potentially invisible AA) You'd also be putting the pillow over the head of anyone that wants to try. You also might make current pilots sick of flying. New potential players might decide they don't want to stick around or that the air force is not for them because the difficulty bar has been raised beyond belief. We also might not live up to your expectations of performance. As Revolver mentioned before, we shouldn't have to be the scapegoat.
3D spotting is put in for balancing purposes. Hardcore mode was put in to attract COD players. BF has always been about arcade fun not serious FPS. Hardcore mode was complained about in Bad Company 2 because of the 1hit kill sniper rifles.
This is battlefield 3, not infantry 3.
3D spotting is our minimap in the sky. With spotting off, you'll still have the minimap spotting turned on. How is that fair? Infantry can still spam Q and just sit and stare at the minimap. Some tank drivers even keep the map open and just stare at that.styphon wrote: I'm happy air will be playing less of a role this campaign. Too often last campaign air just flew over and ruined best laid plans all too easily. I know you guys have it tough against the mobile AA and the soflam's and tanks with lasers, but I think the guys on the ground have it harder when you come storming in and clear everyone out.
Learn to use that minimap guys.
The function of an attack helicopter is to attack ground targets and assist friendly armour. It's not supposed to be pew pew and run away and hide. I'm sorry if doing our jobs ruined your plans.
In response to the minimap statement: I say learn to use stingers, javalins, and soflams effectively and air becomes less of an issue. It was proven last campaign.
Before this poll was brought up, I had spoken with both Haruky and Runaway about making some changes so that both airforces weren't in an all out bloodbath with each other. Both of them really want to focus on making C3 fun.
It seems this poll is leaning heavily towards off and I can't say that I'm surprised as most players are infantry. I still wish there was a 3rd option for on only during air maps, but it doesn't seem like that will be the case. I also feel like many people would be alright with that.
I just implore people to think about their friends in the air and how they won't exactly be having a grand time.
As far as those who voted it off...I'm coming for you.
Re: Vote 3D spotting On or Off
This thread went in a direction it shouldnt have. (in my point of view)
The 3D-Spotting on/off is NOT a Air-vs-Armor-vs-Infantry discussion.
First of all: Stop bashing anybody for voicing their opinions.
Second: If you voice your opinion, do it for yourself not like this "Armor does not have problems with 3d".
Maybe just you in the tank might have that problem.
Third: Vote!
Everyone please vote. This is a crucial rule we are deciding on, and we only have some votes?
That being said:
I think some Infantry players might enjoy 3D Spotting On.
I think some Infantry players might enjoy 3D Spotting Off.
I think some Armor Players might enjoy 3D Spotting On.
I think some Armor Players might enjoy 3D Spotting Off.
I think some Air Players might enjoy 3D Spotting On.
I think some Air Players might enjoy 3D Spotting Off.
Anyone needs a Hug?
Chef
The 3D-Spotting on/off is NOT a Air-vs-Armor-vs-Infantry discussion.
First of all: Stop bashing anybody for voicing their opinions.
Second: If you voice your opinion, do it for yourself not like this "Armor does not have problems with 3d".
Maybe just you in the tank might have that problem.
Third: Vote!
Everyone please vote. This is a crucial rule we are deciding on, and we only have some votes?
That being said:
I think some Infantry players might enjoy 3D Spotting On.
I think some Infantry players might enjoy 3D Spotting Off.
I think some Armor Players might enjoy 3D Spotting On.
I think some Armor Players might enjoy 3D Spotting Off.
I think some Air Players might enjoy 3D Spotting On.
I think some Air Players might enjoy 3D Spotting Off.
Anyone needs a Hug?
Chef
Lets Cook and Roll!
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KoffeinFlummi
- Supporting Member
- Posts: 1686
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:08 pm
- Location: Germany
Re: Vote 3D spotting On or Off
Agreed. This thread is getting out of hand and some people seem to not realize that the time for discussions was in the last thread on this matter. Now, the vote decides. And if the majority has more fun one way, that way should be the way to go, regardless of what branch the people of that oppinion are in. As Chef said, there are people from Air that like it off as well, myself included.Chefcook wrote:This thread went in a direction it shouldnt have. (in my point of view)
The 3D-Spotting on/off is NOT a Air-vs-Armor-vs-Infantry discussion.
First of all: Stop bashing anybody for voicing their opinions.
Second: If you voice your opinion, do it for yourself not like this "Armor does not have problems with 3d".
Maybe just you in the tank might have that problem.
Third: Vote!
Everyone please vote. This is a crucial rule we are deciding on, and we only have some votes?
That being said:
I think some Infantry players might enjoy 3D Spotting On.
I think some Infantry players might enjoy 3D Spotting Off.
I think some Armor Players might enjoy 3D Spotting On.
I think some Armor Players might enjoy 3D Spotting Off.
I think some Air Players might enjoy 3D Spotting On.
I think some Air Players might enjoy 3D Spotting Off.
Anyone needs a Hug?
Chef
Please stop this pointless arguing.
Re: Vote 3D spotting On or Off
I'm pretty torn over this.
On one had its a pain trying to see people while flying when it's turned off, but on the other hand I prefer it to be off when playing infantry
On one had its a pain trying to see people while flying when it's turned off, but on the other hand I prefer it to be off when playing infantry
Re: Vote 3D spotting On or Off
in my view there has been more than enough things that could be done to make a fair compromise to keep both parties at least slightly happy.
woke up this morning, put on my slippers, walked in the kitchen and died
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StarfisherEcho
- Executive
- Posts: 3037
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:24 pm
Re: Vote 3D spotting On or Off
Let's not let this blow up everyone's enjoyment of the game. Like Fields, I see this as a chance to try new things and adapt. I have a hard time believing that it will completely eliminate the airforce as a factor in a game - it might require substantial changes in tactics, but GC is supposed to be about figuring stuff like this out and adapting. Everyone is fighting under the same rules, so let's see what we can come up with.
Re: Vote 3D spotting On or Off
Exactly. 3D-Spotting off is awesome, but it just won't work with the mobile AA. Feels bad to enable doritos just because of one vehicle, but my suggestion is to remove the mobile AA if we're gonna play without doritos.Fields wrote:I doubt anyone seriously wants to hinder the air/mech gameplay, after all GC is about FUN and playing with a great community. The goal here is to produce the best possible environment for organized cooperative play. No doubt turning 3D spotting off brings many new challenges and hurdles to the table for air and armor players, but that will ultimately foster better communication and organization. I like to think of it as more of a challenge to overcome then killing the fun of being a pilot/driver. Heck, even in just 1 training session a group of us PRIDe players were able to figure out some very effective systems to coordinate air support on the ground; it's not impossible to be effective with 3D spotting off, it just takes a bit more effort and cooperation.
Take the opportunity to figure out new strategies and new ways to use the jets, helis and tanks. I think in the long-run, this should be a very positive change (should it go through).
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ICallIDTheft
- Posts: 483
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:20 am
Re: Vote 3D spotting On or Off
DARK seems to be very vocal about wanting it off for the air and i just wanted to note that me and I do believe the rest of Pride air force either prefer it off or haven't got any issues with it being off. So don't think every air player wants it on.
Re: Vote 3D spotting On or Off
This isn't a DARK/PRIDe/Air/Armour/Infantry issue. It's a GC one.ICallIDTheft wrote:DARK seems to be very vocal about wanting it off for the air and i just wanted to note that me and I do believe the rest of Pride air force either prefer it off or haven't got any issues with it being off. So don't think every air player wants it on.
