Seat switch

[elchino7]

Note: do not take into consideration the release bug of the infinite flares (fixed).

That being said, what´s your opinion on this?
I think we can separate this on 2 things: counter measures and weapon loadouts.

CM: and i even think we can make a distintion between ANY vehicle and the Scout Helicopters. I agree that double countermeasures on a vehicle which allows repairs on mid air while there is no risk on doing so (abandoning vehicle, even if it´s momentarialy) it´s strong. On any other case i don´t see mostly any other problem.

WL: what are your considerations with
-Zuni + Tow (both nerfed) and 25mm + AP shells (both weak in comparison to BF3 standards)
-Any combination on MBTs
-TV + Zuni/Tow/AA and 30mm + 25mm/Burst on boats
-7.62mm + 25mm and Guided/Seakers on SH

[o1oo1]

it is fairly hard to do properly in vehicles other than the scout chopper, im fine with it

[TCZapper]

I'm not sure why it's an issue? Was anyone really seat switching before? I mean I had considered doing it to avoid lockons, but the weapon one is too much work to really be an issue.

The tank is harder to seat switch in, but the attack boats and IFVs can seat switch fairly easily. Given that we've artificially nerfed lockons already it seems excessive to give armor the ability to deploy countermeasures twice. Assuming of course that APS and smoke aren't linked, which I've never tested.

And as far as I understand it we're still allowed to switch drivers at will to have a better loadout for the situation (e.g. driver runs anti-vehicle loadout and gunner runs anti-infantry loadout). Basically a non-issue for me.

[Necromancer]

isn't this discussion is supposed to be in your army forums?
After all, its the Generals call.

[matsif]

swapping outside of the middle of a fight because you're being situationally aware really isn't the issue here, it's swapping mid fight in order to give yourself an advantage that the other team can't combat unless they do it as well. the issue is really only around IFV/boats and swapping mid fight with other armor. with either of them, seat swapping allows a huge DPS advantage (mag of zunis -> TOW -> cannon until zunis resupply, or the other way around) and basically forces the team not doing it to participate in it to be competitive. if you don't do it, it's a lost cause because you simply can't keep up with that damage output, despite the nerfs to the weapons. I think this type of activity (quick swap for DPS boost mid-fight) is what initially struck up the first discussion.

There is also the possibility (possibility because I like most/all in GC haven't tested it) of running double countermeasures, which is why it wasn't allowed on choppers. Not nearly as big of a deal on ground vehicles, but still something to think about. being able to fire extinguisher and pop active prot extremely quickly after is quite strong, assuming it works.

that said, in order for it to be really effective it requires practice and knowing your vehicle partner, something that is generally encouraged.

really I don't care whatever the ruling is, as long as there is a ruling that does leave any of that gray area "spirit of the rule" bs that has caused bad blood in the past. all or nothing.

isn't this discussion is supposed to be in your army forums?
After all, its the Generals call.

It's something that impacts both teams and should be open for both teams to discuss outside of their army forums (where it already happened btw). It could also be seen as an exploit of a game mechanic to some, which means it should be in the open where all can comment if they want.

[dan1mall]

we seat swapped all the time in AF back in bf3, was never really an issue then

[Róka]

we seat swapped all the time in AF back in bf3, was never really an issue then

Yeah and it got banned last campaign

[elchino7]

the issue is really only around IFV/boats and swapping mid fight with other armor. with either of them, seat swapping allows a huge DPS advantage (mag of zunis -> TOW -> cannon until zunis resupply, or the other way around) and basically forces the team not doing it to participate in it to be competitive. if you don't do it, it's a lost cause because you simply can't keep up with that damage output, despite the nerfs to the weapons. I think this type of activity (quick swap for DPS boost mid-fight) is what initially struck up the first discussion. 1

There is also the possibility (possibility because I like most/all in GC haven't tested it) of running double countermeasures, which is why it wasn't allowed on choppers. Not nearly as big of a deal on ground vehicles, but still something to think about. being able to fire extinguisher and pop active prot extremely quickly after is quite strong, assuming it works. 2

that said, in order for it to be really effective it requires practice and knowing your vehicle partner, something that is generally encouraged. 3

really I don't care whatever the ruling is, as long as there is a ruling that does leave any of that gray area "spirit of the rule" bs that has caused bad blood in the past. all or nothing. 4

1- I agree up to some point regarding the DPS advantage. For both to work, and specially boats, you mostly need to be exchanging blows on a CQC situation.

2- Extinguisher only removes the movement crit. As i said before, scout helis have quite a strong survibility on this BF but i would rather not take out this option from AH (flying coffings)

3- Teamwork op We have been doing this since BF3, why is this an issue now?

4- AND this is mostly one of the reason i started this thread. I haven´t seen a good explanation neither a good wording regarding this rule.

we seat swapped all the time in AF back in bf3, was never really an issue then

While i have the same feeling, we have to remember that the game is different. 1 Stinger was meant to disable and force you to land to repair/extinguisher. Nowadays you can tank a lot more of damage (scout).

[Necromancer]

forces the team not doing it to participate in it to be competitive

I don't see a problem with this statement.
I think the army is supposed to get better, tighter, and more competitive. Its that much more rewarding when you're able to win a fight because your teammates did their job like clockwork.
If you up the game a notch and the opposite team can't catch up, its not your fault, its their fault.
playing better with more complicated tactics is supposed to be both encouraged and rewarded. Thats what it means to get better, thats how you win the campaign.

The only problem that i see currently with seat-switching is seat switching in the little bird for counter-measures. Its pretty OP as it is.
Thus i proposed that little bird crews will all use the same counter measure as the pilot, which removes the problem.

[matsif]

4- AND this is mostly one of the reason i started this thread. I haven´t seen a good explanation neither a good wording regarding this rule.

because it can be seen by some as an abuse/exploit of a game mechanic in order to make yourself harder to kill or give you more killing power than intended.

per GC fairplay rules:

BF4, like any game, contains a number of exploitable glitches that can give a player an unfair advantage. Exploiting glitches is forbidden in GC. The Golden Rules apply here: if you think you can gain an advantage by doing something, first ensure you will not gain an unfair advantage on the other players. If you don't know what counts as a glitch, or have any doubts at all about something you'd like to try in game, consult your High Command.

An unfair advantage is obviously difficult to define, and requires the application of judgment on the part of the player. In general, the following categories of glitches are considered to grant unfair advantages, and are disallowed:
-A glitch which makes you more difficult to kill than you should be -multiple countermeasures
-A glitch in the map which makes you more difficult to kill than you would be in a similar position elsewhere, such as hiding behind a invincible-one way barrier
-A glitch which allows you to go "outside" the map mesh, or access a position from which you cannot be killed due to map bugs
-A glitch which gives you more killing power than was intended by the developers -different weapons with no cooldown

Just because something is not on this list does not mean it is allowed! Glitches may be introduced into the game by a patch or discovered by players, and these will be considered to be disallowed until reviewed by HCs, TAs and Executives.

note the bolded parts, which are done when seat switching mid-fight in order to receive an extra countermeasure or weapon set for DPS boosting as noted in italics by definition of the rule.

By that rule there, it should be banned outright with no discussion. However, we are discussing it, so this thread exists. As previously stated, I really don't care, as long as it's clear what is and isn't allowed. However there is strong evidence of this going directly against a fair play rule that we've had here since BF2 (or probably earlier). Just because it was overlooked previously doesn't make it something we should overlook now.

[Hgx]

Now the real question (by following GC rules) is...

Is it a bug/glitch or is it working as intended?

Is using all AP ammo to then switch to HE (by switching drivers) and have it fully loaded a glitch? Or is that the fault of a poor mechanic introduced by DICE developers who have NEVER played the game?

Same goes for countermeasures and all types of munitions.

And honestly, in my opinion, the only situation where it becomes unbalanced is with Scout Helis that can have double of the same countermeasure basically (it would act as having double active protection in tanks, which is NOT the case) plus seats to switch without leaving the vehicle and also being able to repair on the move.

[elchino7]

4- AND this is mostly one of the reason i started this thread. I haven´t seen a good explanation neither a good wording regarding this rule.

because it can be seen by some as an abuse/exploit of a game mechanic in order to make yourself harder to kill or give you more killing power than intended.

per GC fairplay rules:

BF4, like any game, contains a number of exploitable glitches that can give a player an unfair advantage. Exploiting glitches is forbidden in GC. The Golden Rules apply here: if you think you can gain an advantage by doing something, first ensure you will not gain an unfair advantage on the other players. If you don't know what counts as a glitch, or have any doubts at all about something you'd like to try in game, consult your High Command.

An unfair advantage is obviously difficult to define, and requires the application of judgment on the part of the player. In general, the following categories of glitches are considered to grant unfair advantages, and are disallowed:
-A glitch which makes you more difficult to kill than you should be -multiple countermeasures
-A glitch in the map which makes you more difficult to kill than you would be in a similar position elsewhere, such as hiding behind a invincible-one way barrier
-A glitch which allows you to go "outside" the map mesh, or access a position from which you cannot be killed due to map bugs
-A glitch which gives you more killing power than was intended by the developers -different weapons with no cooldown

Just because something is not on this list does not mean it is allowed! Glitches may be introduced into the game by a patch or discovered by players, and these will be considered to be disallowed until reviewed by HCs, TAs and Executives.

note the bolded parts, which are done when seat switching mid-fight in order to receive an extra countermeasure or weapon set for DPS boosting as noted in italics by definition of the rule.

By that rule there, it should be banned outright with no discussion. However, we are discussing it, so this thread exists. As previously stated, I really don't care, as long as it's clear what is and isn't allowed. However there is strong evidence of this going directly against a fair play rule that we've had here since BF2 (or probably earlier). Just because it was overlooked previously doesn't make it something we should overlook now.

It says CLEARLY GLITCH. I know this is kinda a grey area on gaming, but theres kinda a long way between using/abusing overseen of game mechanics and using glitches.

By that rule of thumb, we should ban all head"glitch" positions because those give an unfair advantage to those who are on the open. That means mostly all boxes on all the maps.
Should we ban iglas because you can relock objetives after they use smoke? Guided missiles?
What about the normal mines under the water?
What about using perks? They have been bugged since day1. No one should use them or spawn pre live because they might get points and unlock perks faster.
Let´s ban TV missiles because they can go through active protection and are unblockable (unless you consider sniping the TV and killing the user).

Again, word it as an "unbalanced" game mechanic. It´s not a bug/glitch. It´s working as intended, teamwork OP.
Also:
Cooldown. You are not altering the cooldown of the weapons (ROF), you are just adding an "extra" weapon slot if you want to look it at that way.


"Seat switching with the goal of avoiding weapon cool down and/or reload times, is considered a glitch."

-Seat switching OUT OF COMBAT is allowed?
-Switching with weapons without magazines? Going from 7.62mm into 30mm on the scouts for example? Or HMG into guided?
-What about switching upgrades?